Comments on: Why church is often a student’s last priority http://ecc4.wordpress.com/2007/03/16/why-church-is-often-a-student%e2%80%99s-last-priority-2/ A place for us to share, dialogue and reflect Fri, 13 Feb 2009 04:15:46 +0000 http://wordpress.com/ hourly 1 By: Isaac Hovet http://ecc4.wordpress.com/2007/03/16/why-church-is-often-a-student%e2%80%99s-last-priority-2/#comment-111 Isaac Hovet Tue, 20 Mar 2007 19:41:07 +0000 http://ecc4.wordpress.com/2007/03/16/why-church-is-often-a-student%e2%80%99s-last-priority-2/#comment-111 Tamara - Very good...I am in agreement with you... My wife mentioned the other day - "if you have vision, than your life will reflect it." What do our lives reflect? Interesting...ouch... Tamara –

Very good…I am in agreement with you…

My wife mentioned the other day – “if you have vision, than your life will reflect it.”

What do our lives reflect?

Interesting…ouch…

]]> By: Tamara Van Hooser http://ecc4.wordpress.com/2007/03/16/why-church-is-often-a-student%e2%80%99s-last-priority-2/#comment-110 Tamara Van Hooser Tue, 20 Mar 2007 18:12:12 +0000 http://ecc4.wordpress.com/2007/03/16/why-church-is-often-a-student%e2%80%99s-last-priority-2/#comment-110 Interesting thoughts to be sure....there is way too much "checklist" mentality in culture these days and church--if it is there at all is just another box on the list to be checked off when the "duty" is done as if some perfunctory attendance at an event or service alleviates one from responsibility the rest of the time. I don't know that we necessarily need "seminary" classes every day, especially if the requirement then becomes just another duty on the to do list and does not enlist the heart and real commitment to a lifestyle, not just a set of rules (i.e. We don't want to create Pharisees!!). But what we do need desperately in this culture is lifestyle commitment...more people who live, breathe, work and eat, etc. everyday for what they believe in...regardless of whether they are paid to do ministry or are in ministry in their workplace or family or volunteer organizations. There needs to be more recognition and adopting of Jesus as a lifestyle, not a creed....a relationship, not a calendar item---and that means ACTION, living out the servant example, going, doing, participating and not passively sitting back and watching others do...you can't be a vicarious Christian. God wants your heart, mind, soul and strength directed to active relationship with Him and service to others....not lukewarm couch potatoes who think they can sit back and let someone else do it for them....and reap credit for themselves by claiming "guilt by association" so to speak. God KNOWS the difference!!! Interesting thoughts to be sure….there is way too much “checklist” mentality in culture these days and church–if it is there at all is just another box on the list to be checked off when the “duty” is done as if some perfunctory attendance at an event or service alleviates one from responsibility the rest of the time. I don’t know that we necessarily need “seminary” classes every day, especially if the requirement then becomes just another duty on the to do list and does not enlist the heart and real commitment to a lifestyle, not just a set of rules (i.e. We don’t want to create Pharisees!!). But what we do need desperately in this culture is lifestyle commitment…more people who live, breathe, work and eat, etc. everyday for what they believe in…regardless of whether they are paid to do ministry or are in ministry in their workplace or family or volunteer organizations. There needs to be more recognition and adopting of Jesus as a lifestyle, not a creed….a relationship, not a calendar item—and that means ACTION, living out the servant example, going, doing, participating and not passively sitting back and watching others do…you can’t be a vicarious Christian. God wants your heart, mind, soul and strength directed to active relationship with Him and service to others….not lukewarm couch potatoes who think they can sit back and let someone else do it for them….and reap credit for themselves by claiming “guilt by association” so to speak. God KNOWS the difference!!!

]]> By: Isaac Hovet http://ecc4.wordpress.com/2007/03/16/why-church-is-often-a-student%e2%80%99s-last-priority-2/#comment-100 Isaac Hovet Mon, 19 Mar 2007 19:56:18 +0000 http://ecc4.wordpress.com/2007/03/16/why-church-is-often-a-student%e2%80%99s-last-priority-2/#comment-100 TJ - Yes you did and do have a lot of thoughts! Very well said... I agree that the goal is to help young people live an integrated life. They need to be able to practice faith in the real world - real jobs - real communities - with real issues. And I appreciate your thoughts on how it is the big transitions that we need to be focusing on. You brought the point back to foundation - that we need young people to express themselves (vocationally, personally) from the context of a solid relationship with Christ. I agree with this assessment. Which brings us back to the beginning - are we doing enough to establish a real foundation within these students lives? Statistics (which are nothing more than numbers) have said that 80+% of students out of typical youth groups will make moral decisions that are directly contrary to their "beliefs" within 1 year of leaving for college. Now, that is very general and vague, but the fact remains. Young people, when thrust into the American Dream Machine (college-debt-work-family-house-debt) acquire baggage that potentially keeps them from living out the dream of Jesus. Anyway...requirments aren't going to do anything (LDS missions for example). But...opportunities to serve and to lay one's life down for a significant amount of time will do a lot, no? You have a great mind TJ - thanks for the thoughts... TJ – Yes you did and do have a lot of thoughts! Very well said…

I agree that the goal is to help young people live an integrated life. They need to be able to practice faith in the real world – real jobs – real communities – with real issues.

And I appreciate your thoughts on how it is the big transitions that we need to be focusing on.

You brought the point back to foundation – that we need young people to express themselves (vocationally, personally) from the context of a solid relationship with Christ. I agree with this assessment.

Which brings us back to the beginning – are we doing enough to establish a real foundation within these students lives? Statistics (which are nothing more than numbers) have said that 80+% of students out of typical youth groups will make moral decisions that are directly contrary to their “beliefs” within 1 year of leaving for college. Now, that is very general and vague, but the fact remains. Young people, when thrust into the American Dream Machine (college-debt-work-family-house-debt) acquire baggage that potentially keeps them from living out the dream of Jesus.

Anyway…requirments aren’t going to do anything (LDS missions for example).

But…opportunities to serve and to lay one’s life down for a significant amount of time will do a lot, no?

You have a great mind TJ – thanks for the thoughts…

]]> By: Tj http://ecc4.wordpress.com/2007/03/16/why-church-is-often-a-student%e2%80%99s-last-priority-2/#comment-98 Tj Mon, 19 Mar 2007 19:39:36 +0000 http://ecc4.wordpress.com/2007/03/16/why-church-is-often-a-student%e2%80%99s-last-priority-2/#comment-98 Wow, a million thoughts... all over the place (par for the course for me ;) ). I appreciate the comments in the source article that pointed out the concern with making the LDS church some sort of ideal. There is a chasm of difference (irrespective of which church) between indoctrination and true belief and ownership of it. My first response when reading (other than above) was one to cheer them on... yeah, higher standards. Yes, bigger priority... I found myself thinking though... it sounded almost as if the desired outcome was "fulltime ministry" (meaning, a "job" as a missionary, pastor, etc). What of athletes like David Robinson, doctors like James Dobson, lawyers like those working for the ACLJ, and so on? We all need that strong foundation of faith and relationship with Jesus Christ, regardless of where we head. But, God has gifted a child, and it seems natural and wise to encourage them to fully pursue and develop that... and encourage that to become their ministry, along with the good foundation of their relationship with Christ. Hmm... let me rephrase that (and maybe what I just said was indicative of the problem)... We should focus on the foundation first, and secondarily (or as a byproduct of) their employing their gifts in service to him and as part of their life's focus and direction. I know that for myself, I'm not the greatest at identifying my kids strengths... and then using those to steer them in directions in which they can explore them. Sure, they're just kids, but I can't imagine it should be a "ok, your nearly done with HS, figure out what you're good at and pick a direction that will affect the rest of your life" kind of thing. Maybe that's what I'm driving at. Maybe it isn't the "higher standard", but the modeling and teaching of how to integrate your faith, with your "job" and purpose in life so there is less room for that disconnect to develop (if they're practicing it well beforehand). Kind of ties in with the LDS reference. For them, their system of beliefs does permeate their families, and culture. It's hard to NOT do both (work & faith) everyday throughout your life and it's various transitions. Though, from my understanding there is still that critical stage of moving into adulthood that so many go AWAL. But, with all the practice of having both integrated... you dont spend 12 years being a student (and hopefully a Christian, but unfortunately student is more certain). While being a student you go to church (at some point, because your family does, ideally it's something you own for yourself before heading out on your own). Work/college is something that is easier to fall into as the next step. You may flail about finding the right one(s)... but it's concrete. Your walk with Christ may suffer from atrophy... but you can keep "doing" work/school. Then you have another adjustment... you're no longer student (or working entry level job). Now you're heading towards career (and family?). You're already a few steps away from the student/faith time in life... what does the next step look like integrated with your faith? How do you do it? Life gets busier, and you make choices about priorities (that are really just the fruit of choices already made). Maybe part of my problem is an issue of perspective. I see (mostly) the same kids at church each week. Based on what I see and hear, I would be surprised if most of their peers aren't aware that these kids claim to be Christians. How well are they representing Him? I don't see them at school with their peers, and of course I don't often see many new faces (but how often do we adults successfully convince someone to check out our church?) It seems (minor issues and isolated instances aside) that they're doing relatively well at managing both. So maybe we should focus on how they can continue this during big transitions in life (and still certainly challenge them and encourage further growth in all areas of their lives)? In closing (to finally shut-down this ramble-machine :) )... in my experience, the best antidote for materialism and self-centeredness is serving others. After meeting the people that showed up at the Rescue Mission a few weekends, and seeing them as people, getting to know them, and their struggles... and doing the same in Mexico while building hospitals and doing outreach... it was FAR more difficult to slip into a numb, humanistic lifestyle (though I've certainly still slipped since, and without a doubt will again at some point). Wow, a million thoughts… all over the place (par for the course for me ;) ).

I appreciate the comments in the source article that pointed out the concern with making the LDS church some sort of ideal. There is a chasm of difference (irrespective of which church) between indoctrination and true belief and ownership of it.

My first response when reading (other than above) was one to cheer them on… yeah, higher standards. Yes, bigger priority…

I found myself thinking though… it sounded almost as if the desired outcome was “fulltime ministry” (meaning, a “job” as a missionary, pastor, etc). What of athletes like David Robinson, doctors like James Dobson, lawyers like those working for the ACLJ, and so on?

We all need that strong foundation of faith and relationship with Jesus Christ, regardless of where we head.

But, God has gifted a child, and it seems natural and wise to encourage them to fully pursue and develop that… and encourage that to become their ministry, along with the good foundation of their relationship with Christ. Hmm… let me rephrase that (and maybe what I just said was indicative of the problem)…

We should focus on the foundation first, and secondarily (or as a byproduct of) their employing their gifts in service to him and as part of their life’s focus and direction.

I know that for myself, I’m not the greatest at identifying my kids strengths… and then using those to steer them in directions in which they can explore them. Sure, they’re just kids, but I can’t imagine it should be a “ok, your nearly done with HS, figure out what you’re good at and pick a direction that will affect the rest of your life” kind of thing.

Maybe that’s what I’m driving at. Maybe it isn’t the “higher standard”, but the modeling and teaching of how to integrate your faith, with your “job” and purpose in life so there is less room for that disconnect to develop (if they’re practicing it well beforehand).

Kind of ties in with the LDS reference. For them, their system of beliefs does permeate their families, and culture. It’s hard to NOT do both (work & faith) everyday throughout your life and it’s various transitions. Though, from my understanding there is still that critical stage of moving into adulthood that so many go AWAL.

But, with all the practice of having both integrated… you dont spend 12 years being a student (and hopefully a Christian, but unfortunately student is more certain). While being a student you go to church (at some point, because your family does, ideally it’s something you own for yourself before heading out on your own).

Work/college is something that is easier to fall into as the next step. You may flail about finding the right one(s)… but it’s concrete. Your walk with Christ may suffer from atrophy… but you can keep “doing” work/school.

Then you have another adjustment… you’re no longer student (or working entry level job). Now you’re heading towards career (and family?). You’re already a few steps away from the student/faith time in life… what does the next step look like integrated with your faith? How do you do it? Life gets busier, and you make choices about priorities (that are really just the fruit of choices already made).

Maybe part of my problem is an issue of perspective. I see (mostly) the same kids at church each week. Based on what I see and hear, I would be surprised if most of their peers aren’t aware that these kids claim to be Christians. How well are they representing Him? I don’t see them at school with their peers, and of course I don’t often see many new faces (but how often do we adults successfully convince someone to check out our church?)

It seems (minor issues and isolated instances aside) that they’re doing relatively well at managing both. So maybe we should focus on how they can continue this during big transitions in life (and still certainly challenge them and encourage further growth in all areas of their lives)?

In closing (to finally shut-down this ramble-machine :) )… in my experience, the best antidote for materialism and self-centeredness is serving others.

After meeting the people that showed up at the Rescue Mission a few weekends, and seeing them as people, getting to know them, and their struggles… and doing the same in Mexico while building hospitals and doing outreach… it was FAR more difficult to slip into a numb, humanistic lifestyle (though I’ve certainly still slipped since, and without a doubt will again at some point).

]]> By: Lori Scholz http://ecc4.wordpress.com/2007/03/16/why-church-is-often-a-student%e2%80%99s-last-priority-2/#comment-93 Lori Scholz Sun, 18 Mar 2007 18:20:41 +0000 http://ecc4.wordpress.com/2007/03/16/why-church-is-often-a-student%e2%80%99s-last-priority-2/#comment-93 All very good points! VERY Good! I have a renewed "vigor" as a parent of a 14 year old to prioritize his Spiritual growth above all else! The LAST days....possibly the LAST generation to claim Jesus as their Lord.....who knows! All very good points! VERY Good!

I have a renewed “vigor” as a parent of a 14 year old to prioritize his Spiritual growth above all else!

The LAST days….possibly the LAST generation to claim Jesus as their Lord…..who knows!

]]> By: Isaac Hovet http://ecc4.wordpress.com/2007/03/16/why-church-is-often-a-student%e2%80%99s-last-priority-2/#comment-90 Isaac Hovet Sun, 18 Mar 2007 16:39:56 +0000 http://ecc4.wordpress.com/2007/03/16/why-church-is-often-a-student%e2%80%99s-last-priority-2/#comment-90 Carlos: Thanks for the opportunity to hear your view. I am curious about others thoughts. When does good intention (such as requiring a 2 year mission) become forcing one's desires on another's free will? I don't know the answer to that...but I know that I am very motivated to expect a whole lot more out of our students. I see a whole apathetic generation desperate to get out into the "real world" and yet they have little sense of direction or purpose. Unfortunately they often "venture out" and get stuck in the processes of American life...they get in debt...and then are forced to get a "real job" in order to pay off the education they ventured out into. I see over and over again people settling...I am not sure that we as a church expect enough out of families. We allow culture to dictate our values - subsequently we have a whole generation of young people who are simply following the trends of our culture. -Materialism -Self-Centeredness -Entertainment Lust Ok, enough of my rant...I would like to hear from some other people... Carlos:

Thanks for the opportunity to hear your view. I am curious about others thoughts.

When does good intention (such as requiring a 2 year mission) become forcing one’s desires on another’s free will?

I don’t know the answer to that…but I know that I am very motivated to expect a whole lot more out of our students. I see a whole apathetic generation desperate to get out into the “real world” and yet they have little sense of direction or purpose. Unfortunately they often “venture out” and get stuck in the processes of American life…they get in debt…and then are forced to get a “real job” in order to pay off the education they ventured out into. I see over and over again people settling…I am not sure that we as a church expect enough out of families. We allow culture to dictate our values – subsequently we have a whole generation of young people who are simply following the trends of our culture.

-Materialism
-Self-Centeredness
-Entertainment Lust

Ok, enough of my rant…I would like to hear from some other people…

]]> By: Carlos Andra http://ecc4.wordpress.com/2007/03/16/why-church-is-often-a-student%e2%80%99s-last-priority-2/#comment-88 Carlos Andra Sat, 17 Mar 2007 06:16:03 +0000 http://ecc4.wordpress.com/2007/03/16/why-church-is-often-a-student%e2%80%99s-last-priority-2/#comment-88 CONFIRMED (approval for posting) CONFIRMED (approval for posting)

]]> By: Isaac Hovet http://ecc4.wordpress.com/2007/03/16/why-church-is-often-a-student%e2%80%99s-last-priority-2/#comment-87 Isaac Hovet Sat, 17 Mar 2007 05:04:42 +0000 http://ecc4.wordpress.com/2007/03/16/why-church-is-often-a-student%e2%80%99s-last-priority-2/#comment-87 Carlos and I had an interesting IM conversation about this tonight. He gave me permission to post it here: <b>Carlos:</b> Nice article. Interesting. <b>me:</b> indeed <b>Carlos:</b>The thing that I wonder is... how much of the high standard pushes youth away... <b>me:</b> yes...that is something that I have thought about...quite a bit...because I think about ID a lot...and I have a hard time not pushing it on our grads...Because I see that value... <b>Carlos:</b>See.. I wonder if I would have a different additute towards church if I attended a church like Evergreen that had the same standards/priorities of the Mormon church. <b>me:</b> right... <b>Carlos:</b> See... what I did not like about the Mormon church is... -BORING as hell (no claping,... no FUN music) Too strict. -No real answers to questions I had <b>me:</b> ya <b>Carlos:</b> -The concept that they taght never really appealed to me AND.... ... it made me feel like I was never good enough. <b>me:</b> right... <b>Carlos:</b> I remember the feeling I had when I had my FIRST sin after being baptized at the age of eight... I thought that I was doomed... <strong>me: </strong>which is the tension...a call to a higher standard...but we cannot equate our striving with our value before God...which is always secaure through Jesus...and if that is the case...we allow freedom of decisions, priorities...and values... <b>Carlos:</b> The pressure I had (to not sin) after being baptized was so great that in a way... even though I felt doomed, I was releaved (sp?) me: hmm...interesitng...relieved <b>Carlos:</b> I don't remember much about church culture as a standard practice in the LDS church but I do know that in the LDS church I felt compared to GOD where as at ECC I feel that..... let me think.....I feel that being human and a created by god being that is capable of flaw... I feel more NORMAL. Does that make sence? <b>me:</b>yup <b>Carlos:</b>Anyway... my two cents... Carlos and I had an interesting IM conversation about this tonight. He gave me permission to post it here:

Carlos: Nice article. Interesting.
me: indeed
Carlos:The thing that I wonder is… how much of the high standard pushes youth away…
me: yes…that is something that I have thought about…quite a bit…because I think about ID a lot…and I have a hard time not pushing it on our grads…Because I see that value…
Carlos:See.. I wonder if I would have a different additute towards church if I attended a church like Evergreen that had the same standards/priorities of the Mormon church.
me: right…
Carlos: See… what I did not like about the Mormon church is…
-BORING as hell (no claping,… no FUN music) Too strict.
-No real answers to questions I had
me: ya
Carlos: -The concept that they taght never really appealed to me AND….
… it made me feel like I was never good enough.
me: right…
Carlos: I remember the feeling I had when I had my FIRST sin after being baptized at the age of eight… I thought that I was doomed…
me: which is the tension…a call to a higher standard…but we cannot equate our striving with our value before God…which is always secaure through Jesus…and if that is the case…we allow freedom of decisions, priorities…and values…
Carlos: The pressure I had (to not sin) after being baptized was so great that in a way… even though I felt doomed, I was releaved (sp?)
me: hmm…interesitng…relieved
Carlos: I don’t remember much about church culture as a standard practice in the LDS church but I do know that in the LDS church I felt compared to GOD where as at ECC I feel that….. let me think…..I feel that being human and a created by god being that is capable of flaw… I feel more NORMAL. Does that make sence?
me:yup
Carlos:Anyway… my two cents…

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